Cold Barrel shots

[lyonch]

How many of you take into consideration a "Cold Barrel" shot when you are out hunting? I personally have never really looked into this until i stumbled across it while doing some research on other things. I do recall that usually my first shot of the entire shooting session is usually a little bit off and by itself on the paper. I would think that at 200 yards if that "cold barrel shot" is 1/2" away from the normal grouping and you extrapolate (sp) that out to 500 yards plus that can be a large factor when taking that initial shot on a coyote. When i researched the cold shot some more it was recommended by several people to always track where that intial first shot is and then sight your gun inbetween the initial cold shot and the warm barrel grouping. At least in 99% of my hunting application that first shot is always the most critical because they are standing there presenting an optimal shot and everything after that is wait until they stop again or try picking them off on the run (which i need a lot of help with) I am just curious on what others have done. Who knows maybe it isn't enough to effect anything and you can just throw the idea out the window

[Prairie Ghost]

I haven't worried about it but i'm not one of those ballistic fanatics. So that doesn't mean much coming from me.

[Dcoy]

Some rifles its noticeable,just like some when shooting the first shot after cleaning.In my custom barrels(all Shilen except one Hart),there is no difference-at least in the first 4-5 shots.Never done a 'hot' barrel test beyond that.

[xdeano]

just shoot once and you won't have to worry about cold barrel shots. I'm kidding. When you go out shooting, just remember where your first round hits are and you'll be golden. It isn't going to make much difference at 100yds, but when you start getting out 300 or more you'll start to see how your bullets settle out.

It also depends on if it's a clean cold bore shot or just a cbs. The oil in your barrel, even the slight amount will throw your bullet off more than just a cold bore shot.

It shouldn't be much, less than an inch.

xdeano

[LeviM]

I agree with all of you. Last Saturday I was load testing, any my last set of shots, I had a real nice group. Sunday morning, I shot the same load, but it was my first group of the morning, and it group almost the exact same. Its very small change, I wouldnt worry about it, or think about it to hard, if you worry about compensating for it, it might cost you a coyote.

[xdeano]

10-4!

[Pilgrim]

Great topic, Chris. Xdeano is right on- our first shot is golden.

Not to be confused with a "clean" barrel shot, your Cold Barrel shot IS the shot that counts. We attempt the 1st shot at game 100% of the time (a 2nd round some of the time, a 3rd less frequent...). Besides, what shot in sequence are you sighting in for if not your Cold Barrel shot?

To think about:
Every steel barrel actually changes shape when a round is fired from a cold barrel, and even more so as it warms. That change will be translated by bullet POI anywhere from no change to an inch or more at 100 yards. It’s one thing to shoot from a warm barrel when doing the rough sighting adjustments, and another when getting down to the fine tuning of your crosshairs.

A couple tips:
As Dcoy sort of mentioned, there are accurate barrels that seem to continue to shoot consistent POI even as they warm up (to a point)- No doubt that some are just more tolerant (quality pays). The majority of accurate barrels start walking left or right when things warm up, especially with high-velocity loads. Just don’t fine tune your crosshairs shooting through a warm barrel. Let it cool per shot once you get down to the precision sighting. This requires patience.

Another useful rule is to start from a clean barrel (zero copper)and shoot at least 6 or 7 down the tube before you start the detailed sighting in. Most accurate barrels become more consistent as they “settle” (copper & carbon depositing). Every rifle has a predictable “settling” number of shots once you start paying attention. There’s also a point where there’s too much build up and accuracy diminishes. Anyway, most accurate barrels will shoot most consistent between 10 and 20 shots after a cleaning.

[Coyotehunter]

Well that is all fine and dandy. You float your stocks and buy match grade stress relieved barrels to reduce this sort of thing. There are many reasons why you are seeing your bullet impact point change through out your string. As you shoot, your barrel will start to foul and this will be more noticeable with a factory hammered forged compared to a lapped match grade barrel. Not to mention the to numerous to mention other suttle changes that occur between first and last shot of any shooting session. (humidity, temp., mirage, your own fatigue (eyes, ears, shoulder), the 3 cans of moutain dew you drank, wind, etc.) do not get to caught up in trying to compare what is happening with a bench rest rifle to what you are seeing in a hunting rifle. Cleaning practices, weight of the gun, optics and power settings, wind doping.........I do not believe that most of you have ever been with a competitive bench rest shooter and seen what is involved with doping wind. How many of you use wind socks while shooting at paper? If so how many? Do you use a wind gages and if so how often are you checking the wind and at what intervals from rest to point of impact. Please do not mistake this for me trying to be a smart ass here but a 1/2 inch movement at 200 yards is the difference of a slight gust at a 100yrds that was not there 20 minutes prior and with out a wind sock or flag at that distance you will not even no it was there before you pulled the trigger.

[xdeano]

well put CH.

You guys are reading into this stuff way to much. I do know quite a few Benchrest shooters and they are very picky. But they're also looking at the smallest groups that they can shoot. They go nuts if they can't get that group down. Hell they hardly even touch the rifle at all throughout the match other than jacking the bolt and positioning it.

I personally like to shoot with flags, but I have also know that flags will hurt you just as much as they will help you. especially if you watch them to much. You'll go nuts also. If I'm not shooting in a match, I won't waste my time, i'll just pick the nicest days for sight-in's and such. I probably should mess with the flags more while doing load development at 300yds, because it does make a difference. Every 100yds is a flag.

To combat the firing line conditions I'd recommend a Anemometer, (weather station), like a Kestrel or something of the same caliber. But you won't see the affects that those conditions will have on your bullet unless you punch that info into a program. These things are invisible, other than wind and vapor.

Just another tidbit of useless knowledge...
Another thing that people don't think about but it does play a pretty good game on your head is having the sun up or overcast. An old military saying is "lights up, sights up". It causes the mind to get messed up a good bit. What happens is when it's dim out, overcast and you look at a target your pupal dilates to let more light in, the target looks smaller and you tend to shoot higher. But when your shooting at a target with full light your pupal constricts, and the target looks larger than it is and the shot will tend to go low.

just go out and make sure your bullets are in the center of what ever you're shooting at and go kill some coyotes. All you have to shoot is minute of coyote anyhow, right.

xdeano

[Pilgrim]

Before this thread changes context...

Cold barrel shot has everything to do with barrel temp. It's real and very worthy of notice. All these other variables have nothing to do with whether someone gives a hoot about the cold barrel shot or not. I do.

[Dcoy]

Some barrels only.
As to the assorted options available such as Kestrels etc,one can do a search or go to assorted websites and slowly go nuts.One can even kill an hour or two looking at them in Midway or other catalogs.Or,one can realize that in the vast majority of hunting situations for the vast majority of hunters,its irrelevant if you know your rifle and its characteristics(ballistics plus its 'behavior in hot,cold,wind,whatever)plus practice a lot.
As an old timer,i miss seeing 'real' snipers walking around.The ones with the pen marks all over their pants legs from doping out wind and doing the calculations by hand after observing grass movement,mirage,etc at various distances between them and the Deadee.Those days 'practice' was much more difficult and painstaking.Nowadays even real snipers in many situations are bogged down with 'spotters',computers/calculators,and info overload.The Carlos Hs of the world must be turning over in their graves.

[jaybic]

I have been going to mess around with "cold barrel shots" and I have an idea for an experiement that I am going to try. If anyone has an ideas along this line or you have tried it, feel free to chime in.

I am going to take my most accurate rifle, which I normally leave in the truck during hunting season(truck cab temp) and go to the range(which happens to be right near where I hunt) and take one shot on a target and then do it on several consecutive days to get a group and the results will speak for themselves I guess. I know that wind and temp and all those other things come in to play but this is a close as I can get to real world hunting scenarios. It would be a "hunting" group. 5 Shots on 5 separate days and damn the conditions. Even try to shoot the same time of day each shot. I am laid off now so I have never had a better time to experiement.

Probably a useless idea but I may learn something from it I hope.

Later fellas,

Jaybic

[Pilgrim]

Jaybic

That's a useful idea.

Shoot one each day for 5 days, then measure your 5-shot group.

Then shoot 5 as fast as you can relax your breathing- let's say 5 shots in under 100 seconds. Try to keep track of the location of each hit- note the relationship of #3 to #4 to #5 POI, then compare groups.

[xdeano]

Decoy,

You're 110% right about most people not needing some of these tools. But I like to have them in case that 1 out of 20 dog does want to sit out there and bark at a distance, there is no reason why a person can't utilize technology to pick up that dog. I would say that Clarlos Hathcock Sr. would be very appreciative in the advances, from taking equations and complicated trig problems and sticking them into a simple tool. Hell they say keep it simple stupid, sure technology seems complicated but it is fast. I could still be using my mildots to range, by why not use a range finder. I know the equations, they're stuck in my head, but i'll keep them there for a rainy day when my range finders batteries go belly up.

Sorry for being off topic.

Another useful way of collecting the data would be to shoot one shot as you were going to at 100yds, but also follow through with several other shots on a new target to rule out wind and other effects.

This would basically be a round robin effect. If you were to shoot at separate targets for every shot, but overlay the same shot to the same target each day you'll end up with a nice little group on each of the targets by the end of day 5. This will even out those days that the wind is messing with you. number each hole.

remember each day you'll either have to clean to a clean cold bore, or from a cold bore, but with just the cold bore shot you'll have more fowling each day. It's only 25 rounds.

xdeano

[Coyotehunter]

All of these conditions will have an effect, the problem as I see it is isolateing the the movement as it is attributed to one issue more another. Sure in a vacumm you could measure the effect, in the real world with the equipment that most guys use it will be impossible to quantify the impact.